Using Mindfulness and Asking for a Raise

Jennifer (host) 

Hello and welcome back. Today we’re diving into the topic of mindfulness.

So to help us explore this topic, I am thrilled to welcome Dr. Kimberly Applewhite. Dr. Kimberly Applewhite is a licensed psychologist and DBT program director at the Utah Center for Evidence Based Treatment. She earned her degrees from New York University and has completed extensive postdoctoral training at Harvard Medical School and the Huntsman Mental Health Institute.

In Salt Lake City, Utah, Dr. Applewhite brings a wealth of experience working with individuals from diverse backgrounds, including ethnic minorities and LGBTQ+ populations. And she also has expertise in trauma-informed care and suicide prevention. So welcome back Dr. Applewhite.

Dr. Kimberly Applwhite

Thank you for having me, Jen.

Jennifer

Let’s start with how mindfulness fits into dialectical behavior therapy. So Dr. Applewhite, if you can just explain the role that mindfulness plays in DBT practice and why it’s such a foundational skill for DBT.

Dr. Applewhite

Ah, man, it’s crucial. So first of all, if you were to be a participant in full DBT program and be a part of our skills group, there’s four or five modules depending on how old you are that are taught in skills group.

Three of them are taught straight through, uh, no repeats, but mindfulness is repeated in between the other three modules. And so if you were in a skills group for six months, you would be taught the mindfulness skills four times. So that says one thing about how important we think mindfulness is. Also the other skills.

All incorporate, or most of them incorporate some kind of mindfulness strategy in the implementation of the skill. When Marsha Linehan was developing the treatment for people that dealt with chronic suicide ideation, chronic depression, self-harm behavior, the first thing she tried was doing cognitive behavioral interventions, and even CBT does have some mindfulness built in.

Um, in the mindfulness of thought or like just being able to identify feelings. But what she found with the group of people that she was trying to help with the treatment she ended up developing is that they did not respond just to cognitive behavioral interventions. Uh, it made. Them feel too much like something was broken or something was wrong with them, something needed to be fixed.

And so she wanted to balance the behavioral principles that people needed to be able to change their lives and have a life worth living with. The ability to accept the present moment, accept themselves as they are, um, and have unconditional regard. So now, DBT as we know it has a combination of both.

Things, because that’s the right fit for the type of people we serve. And really everybody benefits from being able to loosen grip on the past or let go about worries of the future and really focus in to the here and now, because that is really the only place where people have a capacity to change.

Jennifer

Now I know that one of the challenges that many people face is understanding their emotional triggers. How can mindfulness help individuals who recognize and better understand their own personal emotional triggers?

Dr. Applewhite

That’s a great question. I think that sometimes people fall into this myth of thinking that once an emotion shows up, you don’t really have any control of how it got there or where you go from there.

And it’s probably in part true because emotions, evolved to tell us things about the environment and the, the development of our emotion brains or the emotion centers in our brain. Happen before the thinking parts of our brain. So the prefrontal cortex. , And so a lot of times your emotional response is gonna be the first thing that kicks in.

And when an emotion kicks in, there’s all of these, bodily sensations, right? There’s like facial expression changes and sometimes your emotions try to get your mind to think things ’cause emotion. ’em just like to live. So if you have, anxiety for example, that is displaced, like it’s just kind of free floating, then sometimes.

Your mind will be like, oh, well what are we anxious about? I can come up with some things that we’re anxious about and then it will start to like generate things that match that feeling. Or maybe, you know, people out there have experienced this, when you think about one thing that you were embarrassed by and then you remember like 10 other things that have that same flavor of embarrassment and then you just kind of stew in shame stew, I guess.

And so. If you can believe it, that really evolved from a good place of keeping us out of danger and needing to do it quickly. So that’s why emotions work the way that they do. Now that we have, you know, our thinking brains are prefrontal cortices, we can look back and analyze our emotional experiences, be able to understand them.

And kind of reverse engineer, well, if I’m having this feeling, what is it telling me about the environment or what is going on? And so that’s one way that mindfulness skills are used In DBT uh, group, we teach people about what are the bodily sensations, the interpretations of thought, what are the events or after effects that come.

After the emotional experience, we teach them to recognize all of those things because for people who just wake up feeling some type of way and they don’t know what that type of way is, it really helps to be like, oh, you know, my heart is beating a little faster than normal and I’ve got like some sweat or my pits.

It must mean that I’m nervous. What are some things that I might be nervous about? In this period of time, and then you find things as opposed to letting the emotion run wild and then your brain just coming up with things that you could be worried about. So being able to understand what’s going on in your bodies is one way that we use mindfulness for, managing emotions.

The other way I think would be in just learning to name emotion, experiences. As a way of grounding to the present. Sometimes people that come to us are frequent engagers in self invalidation, so they’ve learned that when this emotion thing shows up. Is not to be paid attention to. Like there may no attention to the man behind the corner or curtain or whatever.

And then emotions, because they like to live will just like wreak havoc somewhere else. And so they end up causing more problems. And then your brain says, oh yeah, see, this is why I didn’t like this emotion thing. But being able to name emotions in. The moment, first of all, is an act of self validation.

Second of all, allows more openness to be in tune to what is going on in the present environment. That’s bringing emotion up, which gives you the opportunity for more mindfulness skills. The example I often give is, one time I was running a race that I had not trained for and I am not a natural runner. I like sit for a living, you know?

Um, but I was trying this. Um, and beforehand I was like, you know, I, this is like a longer distance than I have ever run before. I probably am gonna get pretty discouraged through this thing, but I like, I think if I focus, I can do it. And so I started the race and like, I don’t know how long into it, all of a sudden I started getting these thoughts like, oh my gosh, you know, Kimberly, you could just like turn the corner and go back to the finish line and nobody would ever know.

And, uh, the, all of a sudden, like Doctor Kimberly showed up, like, oh, you’re having a thought. Like, I wonder why I was brought up that thought, and that’s even with me not naming the emotion, which was like discouragement, fatigue, like all of these things. But I had a strong emotion experience that was really dictated by what was happening in my body because running is a strenuous thing.

So sometimes if you’re running and you’re already discouraged and you’re not a runner, like you don’t get natural reinforcement from running, then those things that happen in the body will feel. Pretty similar to how it feels when you’re sad, when you’re discouraged and you’re like, okay, well I’m just gonna throw in the towel.

But being able to say like, oh, what is going on that’s bringing up this feeling that I want, or this thought that I want to give up? Then I could say, oh, it’s like the road is at an incline. So I feel extra tension in my calves. Or like, it’s probably been about 15 minutes. And then I connected to past knowledge about myself.

Oh, like if I run. Two miles. I, I’m often tired for the first two miles, and so like, I must be about at that two mile market and if I keep going then I’ll do, so then it allows me to tune to an environment in a different way, and not to like overcome feeling, but to really listen to what that feeling is trying to tell me and just use that to be more aware.

Jennifer

So that’s cool. Yeah. It sounds like, ’cause I know DBT has. A ton of skills and sometimes they have fun acronyms or they’re trying to make it work, acronyms. But it sounds like , you can’t even really use one of those skills unless you even know what’s going on in the moment, or like you have to be able to at least observe that you need a skill.

Dr. Applewhite

Totally. By using mindfulness. So, I mean, you take one of the classic DBT skills, DEAR MAN, which is used to get what you want from people. So a lot of people that come to us are like super interested in getting what they want from people where the first skill is to describe, describe as one of the mindfulness skills that’s used in DBT.

And the idea is that we have observer states that we can wordlessly watch everything that happens. Sometimes when we describe things, we are already putting our judgements on. We’re already putting interpretations of what we think happened, but just to practice describing things, just the facts of the situation, those wonders in an interpersonal situation because what is the, like, number one thing that starts fights?

You know, if you, if you start a fight with somebody, if you accuse ’em of doing something that they haven’t done, uh, because of the way that you’ve interpreted it. So mindfulness in that sense is, is recognizing that we cannot observe what’s going on. In somebody else’s body. And so when we’re trying to talk to people, we practice saying things in ways that can be objectively observed and described so that we don’t then start other conflicts.

And then you’re right, Jen, like sometimes the mindfulness is just being aware that a skill needs to be used, observing something about. The environment and being like, oh man, I’m really in trouble here. Kind of like I did when I was on the race. I, because I had set a goal to finish this race regardless.

Then when I observed these thoughts coming into my head, then it, uh, reminds me that like, oh, here is an opportunity to be more skillful based on what I already said that I wanted to get out of this situation.

Jennifer

Makes sense. I think the DEAR MAN Skill is really interesting. Getting what you want, and I feel like that’s something that people probably would love to know more about, especially in the workplace. Could you provide like an example of a workplace situation and what going through that skill might look like?

Dr. Applewhite

Oh yeah. There are so many. Examples of things that we need to get from folks at work. Uh, DEAR MAN could be used when you’re trying to give feedback to somebody as a supervisor, like you need different behavior from someone as an employee.

If you want a raise, it might be a good time for DEAR MAN. So let’s say that you wanted to ask for a promotion. Here’s how you would use DEAR MAN skill. So DEAR MAN is actually, arranged in a what you do and a how you do. And so we’re incorporating mindfulness principles throughout to do this. Like what and how interpersonal skill. So the, what you do. Is the DEAR of the DEAR MAN. You described the situation, which like I said, is already a mindfulness skill. You express something about how you feel about the situation or what your opinion is about it.

The A is for assert, so you tell the person what you want them to do. Now we have other skills for like deciding whether it’s a more direct assert or if it’s like a suggestion or a hint or whatever. But basically, if you hadn’t been doing your job, uh, to full capacity is probably not the best time to ask for a race.

Or like if you’re asked. Asking, asking a peer for a raise, like they don’t have the capacity to do what you’re asking them to do. And then the R is for reinforce. So the way that I explain this is that anybody, regardless of whether they love you, hate you, or everything in between. Only wants to do what they want to do.

And so when you want to get somebody to do what you want them to do, you have to provide some reason that they should do it that way. Whether it is reminding the person that it fits within their value somehow, or that they’re something that they’ll get out of it if they do it, or, um. It just like saying a thank you or whatever.

So it’s not all like quid pro quo, but it’s thinking about what is reinforcing for that other person about your ask. So that’s the dear.

And then the man, which is the how part of DEAR MAN is being mindful. So you wanna be aware of what is going on in your body. Sometimes people use the word, be mindful to me, be aware of the other person, and that’s part of it.

But it’s more about self-control, self-mastery, and just being aware of what’s happening in the environment. For example, if you’re in. Like a warm room and you notice that your tone is raising, it could be the room. Sometimes you think that that is like an excuse to get heated. Like your emotion is saying like, oh yeah, this is right, like I really need to go for this.

But it could literally just be like the temperature of the place. And so you’re mindful of the environment. You appear confident. So sometimes like you put on your Wonder Woman stance and then you’re prepared to negotiate if necessary. So if you’re gonna. Go for a raise. I might say something like this, describe a situation by saying, oh, you know, I’ve been at this company for X amount of time.

In that time I’ve met this target, I contributed to the team. Whatever the situation that you know, you would just be careful about saying things like, this person got a raise in. I feel like I deserve a raise, unless you could say that in a more, like, maybe that is the reasoning of it. Right? Like we work at a woman-owned company and we’re, we’re lucky to have, uh, equity in our payment practices, but sometimes a woman learns that their male counterpart is getting paid more than them.

And so you might present this in your describe, but then you just gotta keep it to the facts. So I learned from this person that this person is making this much. That’s it. Don’t call it sexist, don’t call it nothing because you can’t absorb somebody’s interstate. That person could have just been a better negotiator than you at the time.

Like we just don’t know why that happened. So we just wanna keep it to the facts. You describe a situation, you express your opinion, or you express how you feel? I, I feel that it’s a good time for me to have a raise. I feel that I have honored the, the work ethic, the values of the company. If it is the case of like pay and equity, you can carefully say, I feel uneasy, or I, I feel that it is unfair that there is pay and equity at this level when like, we’re doing the same job, we have many of the same responsibilities.

Maybe you’ve been there longer than this other per, these are all still fat based things, and so it’s okay to express your opinion about it. Just try to keep it brief. And so then the assert is, uh, I’d love a race or when, when do you think it would be possible for me to have a race? If you determine that there’s something in the situation that says you need to tentatively ask, when would it be possible?

Depending on how long it’s been, what the situation is, the ask might be stronger. So you might would say, if. I cannot get a raise within a certain period of time. Then it would be right for me to look for other employment. You wanna be careful about that and make sure that the, the, the situation calls for an increasing of the ask.

If your give and take, uh, for the company was equal to, or like above that, that they had given you. If you’re sure you’re talking to the person that makes a decision. If you’re done your homework around like what market rates, uh, are for pay. You have the facts, you need to support that request. And like sure.

Be like, if you don’t gimme a raise, I’m gonna look elsewhere. Not because I don’t like the company, but because I need like the better, uh, living or whatever. And so the reinforce may already be covered in those other things that you said because you’ve kind of been sprinkling it throughout. So, and then like as you talk to the people, ’cause people never wanna do what you want the first time.

This is where you, sometimes need to stay a broken record on your ask, not to the point of inflexibility. But you want to always be mindful of when it would be better to just repeat something that you have already said. Versus getting into what other people want you to say like, ’cause if you get in other people’s battles, then like now you’re in their car, you’re not in your car.

And so sometimes it is better to just repeat what you have said or say that we could talk about this some other time or just any. Number of responses that are prepared in advance as opposed to continuing conversation or extending conflict, getting into a battle. ’cause then you’re much less likely to get what you want.

Mm-hmm. And all of that, if you can believe it. Sorry for being verbose. Generally just take a minute. So like if you said hi, you know, I, I’ve, I’ve been working at the company for five years. I feel like I’ve done a good job. I’ve brought in these services to our center and I think it would be. An appropriate time for me to get a raise in order for me to have better work-life quality balance, and that would make, uh, be a better employer.

So can you give me a timeline on when I might be raise eligible? See, that was even less. Than a minute. But if you hit all the steps of a DEAR MAN, all the while being mindful of like, is it the right time to ask what’s going on with me? Is it too hot in the room? Mm-hmm. Do I need to practice this in front of the mirror so I don’t like pop off? ’cause I feel like I deserve this thing, you know?  So yeah, lots of mindfulness in the DEAR MAN strategy for sure.

Jennifer

That is such a perfect example. Thank you. And it’s, yeah. Gosh, mindfulness really is, it’s just woven throughout the entire thing.

Dr. Applewhite

Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure.

Jennifer

Well, I think that actually wraps up today’s episode on mindfulness. So Dr. Applewhite, thank you so much for sharing your expertise and for providing such actionable insights. So thank you.